Medecine forum
Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
emerson
09-08-2007 03:17
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Please. You do realize schools are businesses, right? I posted on this in a different thread, but I believe this action against RV is unwarranted.
You know Harvard is starting a program where you can give them $100,000, they will invest it using their brokers and you get to keep the dividends and when you die, Harvard gets the $100,000. People are trying to take advantage of the high returns that the Ivy League endowments provide. Now they are expanding that.
That sounds an awfully like a business to me.
Second, schools which are businesses may better serve their students. I don't know... but if your professors are no good students will not come and you will not make any money. That is Business 101. Bad product (bad school) no profit (no students).
Third, schools have been for ages a nice good-old-boy network. Once professors achieve tenure it is almost impossible to fire them. Professors are paid reasonably well for the work they do and will always get that pay check. Some even live on campus and have subsidized housing. If a for-profit school can reform the tenure system and quickly get rid of poor professors, how could this be a negative?
Efficiency may also be better at a for-profit school. At my college we could never figure out what half the people in administration did. Or why half of them worked when half just sat around. Half the jobs seemed insanley redundant.
Rocky Vista should be allowed to open, they have every right to open. If they are a bad school then students will not want to go there. They want to be for-profit so they are going to have to go off of a business model. And with any business if they offer a poor product, a poor education, students will not go there.
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
gilman
09-08-2007 03:29
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Your entire post is rife with fallacy, misdirection, and faulty logic (Harvard is a business, for-profit schools are business, so for-profits schools will be as good as Harvard...your effective argument) and willful ignorance.
What is your relationship with Rocky Vista?
Please. You do realize schools are businesses, right? I posted on this in a different thread, but I believe this action against RV is unwarranted.
You know Harvard is starting a program where you can give them $100,000, they will invest it using their brokers and you get to keep the dividends and when you die, Harvard gets the $100,000. People are trying to take advantage of the high returns that the Ivy League endowments provide. Now they are expanding that.
That sounds an awfully like a business to me.
Second, schools which are businesses may better serve their students. I don't know... but if your professors are no good students will not come and you will not make any money. That is Business 101. Bad product (bad school) no profit (no students).
Third, schools have been for ages a nice good-old-boy network. Once professors achieve tenure it is almost impossible to fire them. Professors are paid reasonably well for the work they do and will always get that pay check. Some even live on campus and have subsidized housing. If a for-profit school can reform the tenure system and quickly get rid of poor professors, how could this be a negative?
Efficiency may also be better at a for-profit school. At my college we could never figure out what half the people in administration did. Or why half of them worked when half just sat around. Half the jobs seemed insanley redundant.
Rocky Vista should be allowed to open, they have every right to open. If they are a bad school then students will not want to go there. They want to be for-profit so they are going to have to go off of a business model. And with any business if they offer a poor product, a poor education, students will not go there.
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
keane
09-08-2007 04:15
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I didn't say "fit" per se. I said there were benefits to a for-profit school.
I wouldn't go to one because I do not trust them explicitly. That doesn't mean someone else might not mind.
What I have a problem with is this campaign against the school before it has even opened. The arguments appear more elitist than anything. "It'll embarass us DOs!" seem to be the jist of it. Unless I am misunderstanding what people mean here. I'll be a future DO and I am not embarrassed.
My problem is that no one is giving the school an opportunity.
This is a lot like an episode of "Fraiser." Yeah, trying a parallel to a TV program isn't the best, but hear me out. In the episode Fraiser and Niles are arguing in Niles's office. One of the neighboring psychiatrist hears them and takes them to his office. He is blunt with them but he gives up and storms out. Then the two come to a realization they are both stubborn, whatever. This psychiatrist was considered by both Fraiser and Niles to be a damn good one and he had a good practice going on (next to Niles's office).
But then the two see that he got his degree from a Caribbean school. The two becoming cocky and immediately dismiss the advice he gave. Niles says he will be able to have the psychiatrist evicted from his office the next day because he is from the Caribbean.
Pretty elitist. And that is all I am getting from this thread. Just because someone is from a for-profit or a different school does not mean their education is inferior.
I say let the school have a chance. If it doesn't perform well then it will close and the problem will be solved.
I guess what many of us don't appreciate is the dime-a-dozen standpoint that many of the "for-profit" schools down in the Caribbean have done for the medical profession. The diploma mill rumors here in the US ARE true and many schools are currently being accused of it for opening "satellite" campuses. Yet, just because its a for-profit doesn't mean that some of the ideas you had mentioned at first are true.
For the endowments, many of the endowments do not "go through" Harvard per se but yes they are fundraisers for Harvard. Totally different than taking someone's tuition and providing them educational benefit. First off, Harvard a non-profit private university (I think) BUT all medical schools are mandated NON-PROFIT!!!
Schools which are businesses may better serve their students." While I agree, having a non-profit standpoint DOES stand better to serve the students and doesn't jive witih your third point of the "good old boy network". Many students falsely assume this, especially those who might have have alot of working experience out in the "real world". And no offense meant for those who haven't worked full-time before going to medical school, but its always the 'grass is greener' on the other side. Until you're there and thrown in the mess, sure things are better on the other side. Politics rule everywhere, for-profit or non-profit. Claiming that a for-profit institution will give students/shareholders the power to make changes is a load of crap. Especially with way they have their boards set up which is something I'm interested in seeing. But I'll bring up that point in a moment.
In 1999, Ross tried to set up an medical school in Wyoming and was shut down because they weren't going to be regulated by US standards. Since the LCME will not allow for-profit schools at all, they are trying to by-pass this by saying "hey, we can do osteopathic school then!". I think that is what is pissing some people off when you understand the historic context. Since they've already tried to open up a non-accredited school and they are forbidden from opening up a LCME school, let's open up an osteopathic school since the AOA has no regulations specifically stating otherwise. Caribbean for profit schools have NOT been looked upon in a favorable light DUE to the diploma mill issues almost a century ago. And notice that only a handful of them are succeeding in producing physicians that are fit to pass the USMLE exams?
The
governing board responsible for oversight of the
medical school must have and follow formal
policies and procedures to avoid the impact of
conflicts of interest of members in the operation
of the school, its associated hospitals, or any
related enterprises.
That is MY issue. Conflict of interest. When do the STUDENT'S best interest come to light when you are trying to hit the bottom line? Education isn't about making a profit, this type of school IS. I could go into tax implications and all sorts of other financial issues as well. This company should be making/breaking even as most institutions end up doing. I'd like to note that some of the bigger schools with more endowments also have larger research facilities and partnerships.
I don't like how "big business" is run and I don't support it in my medical education. Private college education is completely different from medical education where quality is need more-so-over than quantity which I think is what many people are afraid of. We do have many successful private universities but the LCME did make a statement about for-profit universities long before big business. Can't we look at that as forsight?
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
estralla
09-08-2007 04:43
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So I guess if I defend a position I have some sort of affiliation? Why did I just pick out one of your sentences? Because it was too inflammatory to leave alone. You were trying to discredit me by trying to make it look like I had an affiliation with the school. Yet you could have easily done a post search and found out what school I was going to before making such a rude assumption.
I just posted what I thought and what I've seen with other schools. I don't have an idealistic view of schools, be they for-profit or non-profit or private or public. All the experiences I have had with them are the same: they concern themselves with money above a student's needs. The student's needs come second to the money. Money is raised for programs that are flashy rather than practical. Some of the very popular programs at my college were threatened with be cut due to financial reasons, even though they cost less than $20,000 while some of our unpopular sport teams and other things were able to get full funding. It seemed the college (which I did enjoy and loved minus the cheap habits of the administration) cared more about flash and glamor than practicality a good deal of the time.
Will a for-profit school cut resources to make a profit? Yes, I can see them doing so. And I can see them accepting students who do not perform as well on the MCATs and GPA. But then what about the arguments of "Oh, I'm not a good test taker but have great practical skills"? I've heard that argument a lot and many people believe it (I do not, a test tests your retention and knowledge). I'm sure you've heard that before.
But do you think the owners of RV will be as callous running a school on the American mainland as they are in the Caribbean? Will they accept the bottom rung or try and accept middle of the road student? I don't think many students would have this as their top 5 choice, or even top 20. I do not believe RV would be run exactly the same as a Caribbean school because being in the US it would be more scrutinized. But on the past of the owners, I doubt there would be much of a difference.
I do not think the students would be properly served unless the school had a large endowment. But since that is unlikely to happen... And I do agree the best professors would not want to teach there. If I was a professor I wouldn't because of the stigma associated with the
Should it open? No, I don't think so. But should knee-jerk reactions keep it from opening? No. A sensible debate is far better than just posting "Shut 'er down!" Are they automatically evil? No. But past history is a good indicator of how a school will behave. While being on the US mainland I would hope RV would conduct itself properly to a US school with the student's well-being in mind, but I doubt that will happen based on their past.
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
jedi
09-08-2007 04:45
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I would like to jump in here and make a comment or two on this debate. And, I would like to clarify that my only association with the school is that RV has managed to lure away one of the great professors from the school that I attend.
So, to make my point, if this school who is for profit, manages to lure away excellent instructors, looking to short change the students who manage to be accepted there? Why would accomplished physicians who have managed to build up a solid reputation of being an excellent instructor leave the more established institutions to have their reputations ruined for teaching at "for profit" institution that could possibly turn out sub-par physicians?
And, like it has been said, the last for profit school that opened was a long time ago. How can we be sure that this institution will fail before it even has a chance to prove itself?
And lastly, why is it that they are having to open up as a "for profit" entity? Could it be that the Colorado legislature will not fund any more universities or that if the university is not being funded by the state or local government that "for profit" is the only other designation given to that educational institution? Or is it something else other than the school is looking to make a profit off a hot commidity such as medical school?
I haven't done much research into this school but I do recall reading something about RV submitting an application to the state of Colorado along with other educational institutions. And, all of these institutions were private institutions that were also listed as "for profit" institutions.
So, I am not in favor of shutting down RV before it opens. One, there is not enough information here on RV to warrant its closure before it has opened. Two, Colorado is in need of more medical schools and this will give students from Colorado another chance to stay in their home state without having to move out of state to attend medical school.
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
jedi
09-08-2007 05:08
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I would like to jump in here and make a comment or two on this debate. And, I would like to clarify that my only association with the school is that RV has managed to lure away one of the great professors from the school that I attend.
So, to make my point, if this school who is for profit, manages to lure away excellent instructors, looking to short change the students who manage to be accepted there? Why would accomplished physicians who have managed to build up a solid reputation of being an excellent instructor leave the more established institutions to have their reputations ruined for teaching at "for profit" institution that could possibly turn out sub-par physicians?
And, like it has been said, the last for profit school that opened was a long time ago. How can we be sure that this institution will fail before it even has a chance to prove itself?
And lastly, why is it that they are having to open up as a "for profit" entity? Could it be that the Colorado legislature will not fund any more universities or that if the university is not being funded by the state or local government that "for profit" is the only other designation given to that educational institution? Or is it something else other than the school is looking to make a profit off a hot commidity such as medical school?
I haven't done much research into this school but I do recall reading something about RV submitting an application to the state of Colorado along with other educational institutions. And, all of these institutions were private institutions that were also listed as "for profit" institutions.
So, I am not in favor of shutting down RV before it opens. One, there is not enough information here on RV to warrant its closure before it has opened. Two, Colorado is in need of more medical schools and this will give students from Colorado another chance to stay in their home state without having to move out of state to attend medical school.
I had heard that Dr. P is leaving TCOM. I was very saddened by that. He is one of the best professors there, in my opinion.
I find RV very disconcerting for a number of reasons. First is its for-profit status. I have no idea how it will be run, but when you ask the average lay-person what for-profit means, they will not give you a very favorable description and they will most likely have a face to match the description. While RV's mission and intention may be angelic, that is an enormous hurdle to overcome. I do not want that sentiment attached to Osteopathic medicine. Secondly, I have a problem with the number of DO colleges opening. I just heard of another that is petitioning for accreditation in Mississippi. We need some accountability and forethought in planning our profession's future. All future schools should be required to be associated with major undergraduate institutions and should preferably be public institutions rather than privately operated. We need to raise our accreditation standards for undergraduate medical education as well as for post-graduate medical education. We need to re-design our residency training to match our more stringent GME requirements and close or merge those programs that do not "stack up." We absolutely must find a way to control tuition costs. $30k or more per year for tuition is astronomical(!!!) and must be brought down to more reasonable levels. No wonder so many grads are choosing "lifestyle" residencies. They cannot afford to enter a primary care field.
Our entire Osteopathic educational system need to be taken apart and put back together in a more sensible way. This begins with the AOA. We need to have open nominations and voting for the Board of Trustees and President, not the closed session decisions we have now. We need to get some younger blood in there - those who are interested in moving forward, not always yearning for the "good old days" when Dr. Still was still around. This is medicine, a prospective endeavor; we should not perpetually be looking backward at what is long past. The status quo does not exist in medicine. It changes too fast.
We need a real advertisement campaign, we need to get our faces out there. We can do this individually, true, but a national campaign is more effective. Has anyone seen the media blitz lately for nursing? We should come up with something similar for Osteopathic medicine - and not the "We treat patients, not symptoms," bull-crap. About the only advertisement DOs get right now is unscrupulous residents advertising weight-loss supplements...
I know this is a long post, and very off topic. I apologize to the OP in advance.
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
tallan
09-08-2007 05:18
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I had heard that Dr. P is leaving TCOM. I was very saddened by that. He is one of the best professors there, in my opinion.
I find RV very disconcerting for a number of reasons. First is its for-profit status. I have no idea how it will be run, but when you ask the average lay-person what for-profit means, they will not give you a very favorable description and they will most likely have a face to match the description. While RV's mission and intention may be angelic, that is an enormous hurdle to overcome. I do not want that sentiment attached to Osteopathic medicine. Secondly, I have a problem with the number of DO colleges opening. I just heard of another that is petitioning for accreditation in Mississippi. We need some accountability and forethought in planning our profession's future. All future schools should be required to be associated with major undergraduate institutions and should preferably be public institutions rather than privately operated. We need to raise our accreditation standards for undergraduate medical education as well as for post-graduate medical education. We need to re-design our residency training to match our more stringent GME requirements and close or merge those programs that do not "stack up." We absolutely must find a way to control tuition costs. $30k or more per year for tuition is astronomical(!!!) and must be brought down to more reasonable levels. No wonder so many grads are choosing "lifestyle" residencies. They cannot afford to enter a primary care field.
Our entire Osteopathic educational system need to be taken apart and put back together in a more sensible way. This begins with the AOA. We need to have open nominations and voting for the Board of Trustees and President, not the closed session decisions we have now. We need to get some younger blood in there - those who are interested in moving forward, not always yearning for the "good old days" when Dr. Still was still around. This is medicine, a prospective endeavor; we should not perpetually be looking backward at what is long past. The status quo does not exist in medicine. It changes too fast.
We need a real advertisement campaign, we need to get our faces out there. We can do this individually, true, but a national campaign is more effective. Has anyone seen the media blitz lately for nursing? We should come up with something similar for Osteopathic medicine - and not the "We treat patients, not symptoms," bull-crap. About the only advertisement DOs get right now is unscrupulous residents advertising weight-loss supplements...
I know this is a long post, and very off topic. I apologize to the OP in advance.
jd
Beautifully said Dr. DeLaughter! I totally agree w/ you 100%. We need to start a formal association to try to create the change.
You might know me as "Dave" on the AOA blog
We need to get together to start a change
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
estralla
09-08-2007 05:52
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No one, other than those of our leadership who refuse to admit it, will see RVU as anything other than a de facto branch campus of the American University of the Caribbean. The fact that it is a DO school is just icing on the cake. As medicine changes and competition for resources increases, there is no way that this will do anything except hurt our profession. When it comes to the health of the public, all sorts of efforts can be justified by others to deny DO's practice rights, reimbursement and basically roll back the calendar to 1910.
Well, I'm guessing they must want to see the profession dissolve, or something! What a joke! Kinda scary though, as who knows what the long term ramifications might be...except bad. Makes this M1 a wee tad bit concerned!
We need Chuck Norris D.O. like never before!
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
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Re: Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"! |
hooligan
09-08-2007 06:12
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You doubt the published data of lower MCATs and GPAs? Do you really think that DO schools are looking for a "different kind of applicant?" I interviewed people for DO school, I know how it works.
See? Now you go and get moderators involved with the name calling. I never made this personal, why must you?
How? Go out and tutor premeds? As for our DO applicants to residency programs I have worked my ass off to help people study for COMLEX and improve their board scores.
Go back through my post history. Not even a few months ago I posted a very long response about how I DISAGREE with the "separate but equal" nonsense. Read up on my post history before telling me my own opinion.
I agree. Always have. But I dont think changing our DO title and abandoning OMM is the way to do that.
What do you know of the training in the PCOM surgery program? Did you know we are the largest and most competitive DO surgery program in the country? Did you know we do as many major cases in 5 years as most university based allopathic programs? Did you know we are up for ACGME accreditation this year? Did you know we spend time at UPENN, Memorial Sloan Kettering, Deborah Heart & Lung, Copper University and Geisinger? Did you know 85% of our grads in the last 5 years have gone into Plastic Surgery, Cosmetic Surgery, Trauma Surgery/CCS, Colorectal Surgery and Vascular Surgery? Did you know that we are one of only a few DO surgery programs to offer extensive training in Pediatric and MIS surgery? And if all that isnt enough I came to a DO program because I am DO...I believe in OMT and I know the strength of this program.
I didnt think you knew any of that. As above, do your research before making outwardly ignorant comments.
To call my program "Second rate" because its an osteopathic program is pure ignorance. Dont lump PCOMs Surgery program in with the little community based DO programs you see on the AOA website.
I hope you someday do. But you have a long way to go.
Youre relatively new here so I cant really blame you. The last few months I admit I have been a bit jaded. Look back over the last 7 years and see what I have done to raise awareness of osteopathic medicine not only here on SDN but elsewhere. I was promoting osteopathy when SDN had 1143 members (my membership number). For a long, long time I was the only person posting about the strengths of DO schools. Only in the last 3-4 years has SDN grown the way it has. I have met countless of SDNers at their PCOM interviews and offered advice, tours, a night at my house if they traveled from out of state...and even a letter of recommendation here and there.
If youre you looking at how I have posted since July (your joining date) then you arent getting the entire picture.
Again, learn a bit about me and what I have done in the last 6 years I have been a pre-DO, DO student, undergraduate OMM Fellow and now osteopathic intern.
I wouldnt want you to continue to look foolish for your misguided ramblings.
1st I must say, DAMN HOW DO YOU HAVE TIME TO REPOST THAT QUICKLY?? Aren't you a surgery intern??
2ndly I only name called because you did 1st! remember "youngin"
3rdly I never said we should abandon OMM, infact on the AOA blog & at my school, I make the argument to change the degree to MD/DO so that this may incourage MD schools to teach OMM w/out abandoning their degree. I use OMM all the time on my family & I will use it when I am a doctor.
4thly I'm not going to look at your postings for the last 7 years before I make a comment, who would?
Finally, my stats were not at all sub-par. I applied to only DO schools because I believed (and still do) that the DO education is slightly superior to the MD education (mainly because of the OMM). My Undergrad GPA was 3.7 w/ a science GPA of 3.75 & an MCAT of 31..
I wish you luck JP in your career & I appreciate the passion you show here.
-2nd yr
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